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About a year ago I purechsed a lathe cnc retrofit from Ajaxcnccnc (centroid dealer) on Ebay. It took nearly a month to recieve it. Then when I did recieve it it did not have the software unlocks that were listed on Ebay. When I contacked Jessy at Ajaxcnc he told me he would give me a deal on the unlocks. So I just packed it up and sent it back to Centroid where it was mailed from. They refused to accept it and sent it back. Lucky I had paid for it with a credit card. Did a chargeback on my credit card. They Fought me tooth and nail but the credit card company ruled in my favor. Jessy finally gave a PO box to send it too, Did not want me to know his address.
Fred - Diamond
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Then when I did recieve it it did not have the software unlocks that were listed on Ebay. When I contacked Jessy at Ajaxcnc he told me he would give me a deal on the unlocks.I believe Damonfg had similar issues with Centroid.
Apparently, there is some sort of issue with the software unlock codes. They sell you certain features, but those features are not activated in the software even after you've paid for them.
I don't understand why there is a problem if you pay for the features up front.
Begins to sound like fraud.
Or at least bait & switch.
dk - Aluminum
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Thought I would chime in on all this bashing going on.
I guess I am one of those 'punks' Damonfg mentions. I am the rep that sold the CHNC retrofit to him.
I am speaking and writing here for myself and no way do I speak for Centroid in this situation.
Dan K, I met you in NY through Joe F.
Our company has been in business for over 46 years now and I have done a 'few' retrofits in the past 12 years or so.
I will say I am not blameless regarding response to Damonfg issues. I am not the expert when it comes to answering questions regarding software, in depth programming, etc. I can turn a wrench and hand scrape pretty well all considered.
If I may respond to a few things: Software from Centroid is optional. If the option is paid for up front, then there are unlock codes issued for their use. There is no bait and switch or fraud.When you get a new control, there are a certain number of 'demo' days the customer gets for all the software options the factory sells.You get to try them to see if they would be a good choice or not. After those days pass, the free demos disappear unless you would like to purchase such options.
Such an option is rigid tapping or unlimited file size.
To answer one of Damonfg complaints about lower resolution: the original Hardinge probably had .000050' programming resolution. The Centroid has .0001'(that is .0001' on the dia); 1/2 as much. Typically once a lathe gets to a retrofit condition, it probably won't hold the 1/2 tenth anyway, especially when that overhead heater cycles on-off above the lathe or the garage door gets opened up for UPS.
So, if anyone here would like to fire away at me, feel free. I'll ask the first few questions:
Q: 'Could I have done a better jog with Damonfg?'
A: Yes
Q: ' Did Damonfg really have to purchase 3 systems to get a price break?'
A: He purchased his 1 with over $2,300 price break. He did not have to buy 3 up front. Other discounts would have followed. But I do hear from customers that say they have many more systems to buy after the first one so a discount should be forthcoming. Usually there are no such extra machines.
If any of you are able, stop by at the Eastec Show, May 24th -26, booth 1029. See me, check out the Centroid controls, see how much the 1 year on-site service contract costs. See our Hardinge HLV-H remanufacture with the Centroid T series control.
I will be there to listen to and answer your complaints/questions the best I can.
CBlair, I am glad you have a good rep that travels your way periodically. You have some good insight.
Damonfg, if you have to communicate with me, please do it thru email. I am human you know.
Everyone, have a nice day. - CBlairDiamond
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Paul,
I do feel lucky that the rep we use is a good one. I am also lucky to have a new machine purchased with the control installed and it is not a retrofit. There are often many small things that can cause something to be wrong when you try and install a control on a machine that wasnt designed for it. No one can know everthing, to get a rep from Centroid costs money and many people just dont want to spend it. I know, I have to fight tooth and nail here just to get the company to pay for a yearly visit. They always say why have the rep here when there isnt anything wrong with it. Preventive maintenance and peace of mind go along way.
I hope that the folks who are haveing trouble get it staightned out to thier satisfaction soon. If I could help I would, I dont know anything about the retrofits, I am just a very satisfied Centroid user.
I did have one software lock that was not turned on when I thought it should have been. This turned out to be a mistake on the part of the dealer,(Atrump), and they bite the bullet and paid for it.
Charles - Diamond
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I am very glad to see Paul Babin at -least- respond on this thread.
That's more than Centroid has done.
Paul, I hope you can appreciate my point of view regarding Centroid and my recent experience with them.
On that subject:
I don't have big bux to spend on retrofits.
You may know I have a few Fagor controls in the shop, and they are lacking in software features and as far as being user friendly.
That's why I was looking at Ajax. With the software features and price points offered by Centroid/Ajax, I thought I had found a very workable solution to utilizing some good/older iron to improve productivity at my shop.
Then the '**** hit the fan' with the smoked motor.
And what I consider to be a smoke & mirror line of BS followed.
Now, with all the negative reports coming in here and on a couple other sites, I'm quite frustrated to be 'back to square one' looking for an (afordable) control solution. Not where I -want- to be.
I'm giving you fair opportunity and invitation to
show me a solution to these (retrofit) issues if your interested.
My point of view at this point isn't very positive. Matter of fact, it's about $2400 negative (the price of a rebuilt Fanuc motor).
And I understand that's a seperate issue as far as you and your company goes.
Dan Kliegel
Kliegel Machine Co - Aluminum
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Dan,
I undersatnd your situation and I am sorry certain things happened to you.
If you need one other source to repair your Fanuc, try:
Potomac Electric in Boston, Leny Chertov
800-224-4712 ext 15
As far as other solutions, when you stand back and look at the controls out there that are offered, Centroid does give you the most for the money.
Their hardware is mostly modular so if a repair is necessary, that item can be returned to factory. Servo amps can be done on swap out basis saving time and costs.(if needed)
Usually I find if there is a 'problem' with a system, it happens early on. After that they seem run a good long time.
My offer to you: I will sell you a new Centroid at essentially cost if that is something that would interest you given your history.
I do not specificaaly remember the iron you have in your shop.
The link to my web page is a 4-page flyer, pdf, that shows a Hardinge HLV with the Centroid system installed. We have over 20 in the field with 3 in NY state. 4 repeat customers.
Maybe an Eastec visit will help with any decisions to be made.
Thanks,
Paul B - Member
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Paul,
what about damonfgs claim that the purchase order terms were not met and you later wanted more money for options in the purchase order???PO terms not met. Distrib 'Didnt see them on the purchase order' 'Pay more if you want them' - Diamond
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Damonfg......
Can't send you a private message, mailbox is full...???
dan k - Aluminum
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To answer Wally's question:
Damonfg actually checked out the Centroid web site very well and came back with some web pricing errors to his bennefit.
To make a long story short, we agreed on a cost for the standard system. Rigid tapping is not standard.
Then, in his PO,(which came thru with very small font size on my email or fax) it included the option in there and I missed it because we had not discussed it prior to reaching the agreed price.
We both assumed: I assumed with his research on the Centroid web site, he would have noticed it as an option.I guess he assumed it was standard.
As I wrote previously, I could have done a better job following thru with his concerns and questions, and to him, I appologize. - Member
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The customer deliberately puts it on the PO because he wants it. You accept the PO, then just assume it was a mistake and the customer doesn't want it? He sure seems to have been expecting it eh? Isn't the PO binding ? Why not fork it over ?
I did some research on the resolution. Absolute resolution, not program resolution. Centroid on the hardinge is .000025', OEM Allen Bradley is .000002'. That's a 12:1 difference against the centroid. Agreed, tuff to hold .0001 as the temperture changes. OEM has temp comp but no temp comp in the centroid.
So tell us more about how the email font was too small ! - Aluminum
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If items are added to a PO, any PO, after an agreed price, I do not think I would have to fork it over. Options were not dicussed in great depth but more on cost cutting.
The control comes with a certain number of days with all options as 'demo' use. When these days pass the free stuff is gone unless one pays for the option.So if rigid tapping seems like good thing to have after using it a while, then that option is available to purchase.
I will be away for the next week or so. If you have a question and I do not respond , that is why.
If you are making fun of my need for glasses, I get it.
Have a nice day.
PB - Diamond
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The control comes with a certain number of days with all options as 'demo' use. When these days pass the free stuff is gone unless one pays for the option.THAT could get confusing.......
dan k - Diamond
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'If items are added to a PO, any PO, after an agreed price, I do not think I would have to fork it over. Options were not dicussed in great depth but more on cost cutting.'
I always rely on written purchase orders when I'm buying a machine. Verbal agreements of pricing, options, terms, salesman's promises, etc. mean nothing. Everything should be in writing, and should be signed by the seller acknowledging they agreed to the written PO.
It seems to me the fact that damonfg's PO was accepted (presumably with some money exchanged) he should be given the options as he specified on his PO. The offer of another control 'at cost' is ridiculous. - jkilroyDiamond
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Mr. Babin, I want to know what Centriod is going to do for Dan K. Remember him, the original poster of this thread. They took his 2000+ dollar motor as a loan and then ruined it and returned it, with no offer of compensatation.
- Diamond
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Doug,
If we could just get all those 'salesman's promises' incorporated into a PO, and make them stick, our worries would be over. The Chinese would have to go back to rice farming because we'd just pile up some stock alongside each machine once a day and go drink beer while they spew out endless quantities of perfect parts in a totally unattended manner
Seriously, if my own oversight in failing to read what I'm expected to provide as spelled out in a PO results in me having to eat part of the cost, that's just part of doing business and its one of the parts where I learn to be more careful in the future. My mistakes may not taste good, but I eat them anyway. I expect others to do the same. - Member
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A PO is a binding agreement. These items/services for that sum of money. Purchaser puts it in writing and the supplier can accept it or reject it. When the supplier accepts it (ranges from cashing the check to putting a PO number on an invoice or a packing slip) it's official.
Accepting the PO and only honouring part of it is not a legitimate way to do business. Paul, are you any relation to Al Babin?
I have been watching this thread with great interest, and will continue to do so.
'The email font was too small' is a ridiculous excuse. Being email, you can make the fonts huge for reading.
I have heard the following:
- the font on the email PO was too small, so you accepted a PO you couldn't read.
- you didn't discuss each option ahead of time, and since the web lists them as available the customer could just decide they wanted it, but that's not good enough.
- you figured the customer didn't really want those options that he included on the PO.
- damonfg should be happy because he got a price break, even though the cost of the options he was stiffed is greater than whatever price break he got.
Paul, and others, I look forward to your reply. - Diamond
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Mr. Babin, I want to know what Centriod is going to do for Dan K. Remember him, the original poster of this thread. They took his 2000+ dollar motor as a loan and then ruined it and returned it, with no offer of compensatation.Well, it's only reasonable to say that
Mr Babin is in no way responsible for what the morons at Centroid chose to do.
I have a feeling they are in -less- than great financial condition (big surprize, considering how they treat their customers let alone potential customers). Overall, I just don't understand how anyone trying to sell higher-end retrofits makes a living these days.
Dan K is now looking hard at the MACH 2 and 3 products: http://www.artofcnc.ca/
It ain't perfect or perfected at this point, but
there are features there that look to be comparable to Centroid, for less $$$.
Seem like a good bunch of people too.....
Dan K - John StevensonStainless
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Dan,
It would be well worth spending your $150 on a licence now as that license issued at this time is for life, no matter what the version number.
It's also well worth having a look at the Yahoo group that covers Mach2/3 because there are fresh things being added almost daily.
It's not just down to Art now as many people are doing add ons for various parts.
Brian Barker has added a PLC interface for toolchangers etc with up to 150 extra I/O's.
Les Newall has added a keygrabber module for custon built panels and pendants and others have added wizards which is more conversational programming.
Heres a page of lathe wizards.
By clicking on the icon you want it then takes you to a sub screen where you fill the balnks in, press return and it takes you to the main screen where the code is waiting for you ready to run.
We live in interesting times.
John S. - Chevy427zStainless
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I'm watching this thread with great interest as well.
Cliff said:that's just part of doing business and its one of the parts where I learn to be more careful in the future. My mistakes may not taste good, but I eat them anyway. I expect others to do the same.Amen to that.
Then Dan K said:Dan K is now looking hard at the MACH 2 and 3 products: http://www.artofcnc.ca/Now I'm looking, too. Thanks for the link.
It ain't perfect or perfected at this point, but
there are features there that look to be comparable to Centroid, for less $$$.
Seem like a good bunch of people too.....
And thank you John S. for the pointer to the yahoo group.
Mark - Diamond
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John S,
Brian Barker and I had a 45min phone conv. on tuesday I think it was. It's only a matter of weeks before I do my first mill (a tree jorneyman 300 that's kicking around here) with the product.
In a way, this may all be a good thing....
Why, I may end up thanking those sleezy morons
at Cent'hem'roid for saving me lots of bux and major aggrevation.... :rolleyes:
That's MACH II or MACH III
http://www.artofcnc.ca/
Go check it out.....
dan k
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